Be Respectful of Kinks: Warnings, Requests, and Comments

[shinysylver]

Over my time in fandom I feel as though I have grown not just as an author but as a person. I have repeatedly tried to put myself into other people's shoes in as respectful and authentic way as I can through my writing. I also have learned things about myself that I did not realize in the process.

I have recently been thinking about that ever present debate in fandom about warnings and triggers. I always try to be respectful in my headers and include accurate information for people who need to know it, however I am growing increasingly uncomfortable with the usage of the word "warning" to do so.

While participating in kink_bingo I wrote a lot of things that I felt people needed to know about before reading the work. I was not intending to in anyway make a judgement call about the kinks by listing some of them in the warning field. For example, I felt that people should know a fic contains breathplay or bloodplay because it can be triggering for many people, but putting it in the warning section felt a bit off. I did it anyway though.

I won't anymore. From now on anything in my fic that I feel the reader needs to know before hand will be in "content notes." If a comm makes me use a "warning" line then I will put AO3 style warnings there and all other information in "content notes."

This is something that has been bothering me for a while, because, you see, I have had to deal with feeling as though my kinks are shameful and I don't want other people to feel the same from me.

I think a lot of people don't even realize they are doing it. For example, I like some watersports fic. I am not ashamed of this and I don't find it gross, but every time people sign up for exchanges they say things like "no gross kinks like watersports." Well I'm sorry, I don't find watersports gross, but thank you for making me feel bad for that. Also, I certainly won't be requesting it now. Sometimes people are so vague they say "no heavy kinks" or even "use your judgment." Well, I don't know what you consider heavy but that is so vague that I have no clue what you want and using my judgment watersports is fine but D/s is something that I am very, very cautious of, yet I find that in general people feel differently.

Basically, a specific listing of your dislikes would be more appropriate than just saying "gross" or "heavy." It would make it easier for your author to write for you, make it less likely you get something you don't like, and make it so that other people don't feel singled out.

I make no secret of the fact that I read a lot of kink fic. Sometimes I read it because it is my kink and sometimes I read it just because I find that kink fic can provide a lot of fascinating character studies. Unfortunately, I have found that many people who comment on kink fic do not do it in a respectful way. For example I have read scat fic before, then when I go to the comments I inevitably see a lot of this:

"This is so gross, but I like the way you made them support each other."

Why was that first part necessary? Why do you have to start off a comment making sure that the whole world knows you don't find this hot? It's happened in the comments of my fic too. People want to make sure everyone knows they aren't "freaky" enough to actually like the kink, but what about the people that do?

I guess what I'm saying is to please take care when you are dealing with kinks. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it wrong or shameful and just because it isn't your thing doesn't mean you need to say so.

It's not by any means perfect but this is a comment that I recently left on a scat fic:

"I like the trust that you show here. The fact that Tony is willing to leave his comfort zone for Steve says so much about their relationship. The real secret to writing any kinks is to find the emotional connection between the characters and to respect the kink and I really felt that you succeeded beautifully here. :)"

Whether or not I am into coprophilia or not doesn't matter. It doesn't matter when I comment or when I talk about it here. The fact is that someone who is into it will decide never to write more fic or comment on other fic after reading fifteen other people say that their kink is gross, dirty, wrong, shameful, weird, whatever.

Okay, I suppose I will step down off my soapbox, now. Have any of you encountered this? Do any of you consider this sort of thing when you comment or warn? Have you ever felt like others were judging your kinks?

Comments

[somehowunbroken]

Amen and amen.

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

:D

[willow-fae-20.livejournal.com]

I agree 100% with everything you've said here. If I read a kink that's generally outside my comfort zone my feedback will probably start like this:

'This isn't normally a kink I'd read but...'

Because yes, just like some people will occasionally write outside their 'normal' kink zone, I'll sometimes read outside mine. I've also never seen 'trigger warning' used so heavily in headers as I have recently (this is more in Sherlock fic) they trigger warn for incest... In Supernatural the Main pairing is incestuous. Why can't they just say 'possible triggery content ...' It's gotten to the point where the 'warning' section is almost longer than the story.

I think it all boils down to: Your Kink Is Not My Kink, And That's Okay. If more people respected that phrase (used it maybe in place of 'that's gross' in comments) Fandom woul;d be a happier place.

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

I think fandom would be a happier place in general if we imagined the person on the other end more before we hit post. It's easy to forget that whether or not we agree with people about any number of things, that in the end what we do in fandom isn't worth making anyone feel bad over. Whether it's a character we don't like or a kink, bashing just makes for negative dialogue and singles people out.

[ratherastory.livejournal.com]

I come from the Supernatural fandom, so my views on kink are, uh, a little warped. ;)

We've had a recent MAJOR thing about kink and warnings and what is a kink and what is actually a slide into dangerous/bordering on pedophilia territory.

SPN fandom in general is not into kink-shaming, but it does happen. I discourage these practices in the comm I run, but also request that people warn for things that could potentially be triggering for others, in order to ensure that the comm remains a safe space.

I generally put kink in my warnings, because there will always be people who find specific kinks triggering, and I feel they belong in warnings more than comments, because especially in my case people's eyes glaze over when they read my author's notes. ;)

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

I am certainly not against other people using the word warning, but feel it's gotten to the point where either the warning field really is just an enticement to readers and not taken seriously as listing significant potential triggers or it is overenthusiastic in it's warnings.

I completely understand that not everyone wants to read all of the kinks, but I guess that personally I take issue with lumping a consensual, light-hearted watersports fic in with warnings like non-con and graphic violence. It's kind of like these things are not the same at all. I agree that the reader might want to know that it is watersports before reading but I don't want to put it in a warning. I also don't want to end up warning for every paper cut. I want my warnings to be meaningful for the people that need them but not excessive.

There has to be a line somewhere and so I think I am going to take the AO3 approach. I'll warn for the major triggering things if I ever end up writing them, but something like "fisting" can go in the content notes. And things like "fluff" and certainly "slash" or "het" have no place in any warnings, imo.

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

I'm one of those really mean people who absolutely refuse to warn for triggers in my personal journal and posting of stories on said personal journal because I feel most people on the internet conflate an actual trigger for a potential psychotic break for "thing that makes me uncomfortable" and it just makes me roll my eyes. NSFW warnings are as far as I'll go since I view my journal at work lol. I had a friend who had someone go off on her about incest posted to her personal journal without warnings, and considering my friend is heavily into the Thor/Loki fandom and posts about it all the time...you would think the person would have been able to gather that incest would be posted. At some point, the reader/viewer needs to take responsibility as well for what they consume. I don't think I've ever seen a book or movie with specific trigger warnings beyond the usual "strong sexual content" or "explicit drug use" or "violence"

But when I am posting in places that require them, I would rather be able to list content and not have to have it be an actual warning. No judgment call, just a list of what you will find in this fic. You decide if you want to read it or not. I like AO3 a lot in that regard.

One of my biggest kinks, or ok, two of my biggest kinks are prob the two that get the most flack from people for even existing - that would be shota and incest, so I am used to be people judging me for it. I think those people are all asshats and move on.

I want to believe the "I think this is gross but..." comments are people trying to convey, poorly, that they enjoyed something they normally wouldn't, but I don't know if I can actually be that rosy about it. I wrote a fic with a fetish concerning something that actively grosses me out in real life and it was an interesting experience to try and portray it as something I could find hot upon reading it.

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

I absolutely believe that in your personal journal you can do whatever the hell you want and if people choose to follow you then that is on them.

To my knowledge, I do not have any actual triggers although there is certainly content that I would like to know about before reading. There are definitely things that I am more comfortable with than others. For me though, the things that will actually make me back out of a fic very uncomfortably are things that will never be warned for because they are such standard romantic comedy style tropes. Mostly they have to do with people lying about significant things within a relationship (gender for example) and the fic never dealing with it as more than comedy or silly drama. But yeah, certainly not something I would expect anyone to warn for, I can close the window as good as the next person.

As regards incest, I feel like you do, that the pairing should tell the story. I would never dream of including incest warnings on Thor/Loki fic although I have put "sibling incest" and "cousin incest" on things before. These days I probably wouldn't unless it was a tagging at AO3 because I know I search my kinks that way.

I am used to be people judging me for it.

Not in this journal they won't. :D

I wrote a fic with a fetish concerning something that actively grosses me out in real life and it was an interesting experience to try and portray it as something I could find hot upon reading it.

I completed a coverall in Kink_Bingo and there were some kinks that it took me a while to figure out how to do in a way that was both respectful of the kink and respectful to myself. I had a lot of prompts that are often skewed toward D/s which is not something I am very comfortable with and especially not in the fandom I was writing. I had to find out how to make it work for the kink, me, and the characters I was writing. It was certainly an interesting experience and I think I learned a lot doing it.

[sumeragiskank.livejournal.com]

I don't have any triggers myself, and I understand sometimes the oddly mundane things being the things that squick you out, but I don't think every single thing that could possibly squick someone should have to be outlined before the reading begins. Sometimes, completely consensual vanilla heterosexual sex weirds me out if it's wrong for the characters involved.

I do like how AO3 gives you the level of warning you want to give, or to just tag things to make for easy searching. I sort of wasted an entire day a couple of weeks ago going through the mpreg tag >.>

The fic I wrote that pushed me involved breast feeding lol. I am a woman, have boobs, and it's just something that has always made my skin crawl at the thought of/sight of, so working through it and writing it in a way that was hot and intimate to me was a challenge.

[azziria.livejournal.com]

I suppose I look on the 'Warning' line more as a 'Content' line, in that while it's there to warn off those who don't like that kink, it's also there to attract those who do. Certainly, you include 'bloodplay' and I'm there, but equally, 'Daddy kink' has me staying away because it's not my kink.

I often wonder why people read kinks that they know they don't like. Sometimes I wonder if the people who make those comments are trying to make an excuse (to themselves as much as anyone else) for being turned on by something they consider shameful. Which is sad, rather than anything else.

I accepted (a long time ago in a fandom far, far away) that some of my kinks were rather fringe and not approved of or understood by all, and I'm not about to let myself feel ashamed of them, whatever anyone else says.

[powrhug.livejournal.com]

I read kinks that I sometimes don't like because I like and trust the author. You're a good example of this. There are kinks you've written and when I comment I mention that I don't normally read the kink in question because to me it's a compliment....which is how I intended it. =)

Conversely, I've written kinds like "blood play" and have had folks comment to me saying things along the lines of "I don't normally like blood play, but I really liked this." I never think of that as a bad thing, I'm happy that they gave it a chance and enjoyed it.

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

I definitely think a lot of the commenting is an attempt to distance a person from a kink they are surprised to find they really do like.

I have no problem if people want to warn for more things, but I have just gotten to the point where warning for something like a lighthearted watersports fic where everything is schmoopy and happy seems ridiculous. I'll still list watersports but not in the same place I would list noncon.

I do like to see the kinks listed in a PWP style fic though, because then I know what's in there and I can scramble like a madwoman to click on "exhibitionism." ;)

I'm not about to let myself feel ashamed of them, whatever anyone else says.

Amen! This is something that fandom is teaching me. :D

[camshaft22.livejournal.com]

This is really good. You've said like everything I feel and I think I'm going to change the way I do my notes.

[tailoredshirt.livejournal.com]

I like "content" vs. "warnings." That's what I use in my headers, for the reasons you specified above (unless a fest - like the holiday swap - requires me to use "warnings"). It just seems like the most accurate label while still being neutral. The thing that got that ball rolling for me was seeing people warning for slash or boys kissing or whatever. (I admit, when I first started writing slash several years ago, I did this. I was in a tiny het-centric fandom and I felt like I was going out on a limb. Obviously that's not something I'd warn for anymore.) I get that slash is not everyone's thing, but warning for it makes it sound like a perverted act that people should read in secret and never admit to, and so does warning for kinks. It's nice to let people know that it's in there, but mostly so they can know whether or not it's something they want to read. I know a lot of people use "warnings/enticements" which at least implies that one person's warning is another person's enticement. I know if someone warned for watersports or face-fucking or bestiality, I'd definitely consider that an enticement more than a warning!

I also sometimes find warnings hilariously unnecessary. Like warning for incest when the fic is clearly labeled Chin/Kono and it's rated NC-17 and the summary says, "Chin and Kono fuck on his bike." Really, there's going to be incest in that??? Shocker! Same with things like age discrepancy when it's obvious that there's going to be an age discrepancy between Harry Potter and Scorpius Malfoy, given that Harry is the same age as Scorpius's father in canon.

I need to finish that Steve/Danny watersports fic for you! I think I had about 800 words...

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

Yessss! Watersports! Also, your icon rocks this post.

I agree with all of this. I especially hate warnings for slash, het, poly, whatever. Those things should be clear in the pairings. I do however as a reader want to know if a fic contains incest because I have read a HP/SPN crossover with no pairings listed that sideswiped me with Wincest 20k in. That is not cool.

[tailoredshirt.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I made it a rule not to click on fics that warn for het, slash, or femslash. If it's supposed to be a joke then...I guess I don't get the joke!

Well yeah, no pairings listed is completely different. I'm talking about fics with pairings clearly marked. Everyone knows Chin and Kono are cousins, so seeing "Chin/Kono" should be a clue. Crossovers are different because a reader might be unfamiliar with one source material, so I'd likely warn for incest in case a reader doesn't know that Chin and Kono are cousins.

[finduilas-clln.livejournal.com]

Word. Whenever I read something that I don't usually read and I turn out really liking it (sometimes, much to my own surprise), I might mention in the comment that I don't usually read this kind of stuff, but... and then start praising the fic. Because I think it also shows to the writer that they've achieved something other writers don't necessarily achieve. (Namely, me liking this particular kink/verse/whatever) But going "this is so gross"??? Why would anyone do that?

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

I think it's fine to explain that a fic went outside your comfort zone and I'm sure you are very respectful in doing so. I do know that some people attempt to do that and come off as a bit judgey. "I never expected to like this kink" has a completely different tone than "I'm glad I gave this fic a try" but both are definitely better than "I so don't like this but you did pretty good." (You'd think that last is an exaggeration but it's not.)

[finduilas-clln.livejournal.com]

I certainly try to be respectful, always.

(You'd think that last is an exaggeration but it's not.)
*facepalm* People need to work on tact. Sometimes I read a fic that I really don't like (can be because of anything, badly written, or a subject that squicks me or something) but then I just don't comment. I think it's better not to say anything in those cases, then to go and ruin a writer's day by crapping all over their fic.

Completely OT, but... Your icon is so gorgeous!

[sanguine2.livejournal.com]

totally agree-
comments on kink need to be more carefully thought out!!

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

I'm sure you have encountered some of this with your fic as well. *fist bump of solidarity* :)

[sanguine2.livejournal.com]

*fist bump back*
am constantly amazed at peeps who mix a stroke with a slap -
do they really not get it?

[powrhug.livejournal.com]

I'm someone who puts a "warming" area and then puts things like "het" and "overly schmoopy" so I don't take that label very seriously. I appreciate that folks have concerns over that label, but to me it's just a way to divide up my notes instead of having one long note area.

And as I said to Azz, I often start out "this isn't my normal kink..." because I see it as a way of complimenting the author. Never have I used it to disclaim or shame...I want the author to know that hey I like you enough and trust you enough that I went out of my boundaries for once and I really enjoyed what you wrote. I think I've started comments to you before in your kink fics this same way! And when I get folks saying similar things in my fic, I guess I always just assume they meant it as a compliment. But then again, I tend to have rose-colored glasses.

Now, I'd never ever use the word "gross" or "disgusting" or similar words in feedback, ever. That's totally rude and weird and I have no clue why anyone would consider that a good way to convey their feelings to an author.

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

I'm someone who puts a "warming" area and then puts things like "het" and "overly schmoopy" so I don't take that label very seriously.

I find it offensive when someone warns for slash and most of the time won't even click on their fic. I feel similarly about warnings for het. Because I know you, I know you do it tongue in cheek, but I have known het authors and readers that find that warning equally offensive. That somehow the relationships that they enjoy reading and writing are shameful or wrong or to be warned for as well. So, my personal opinion about that is just look at my pairings. If you can't figure out if it is slash or het that way then you need to return to the source material before reading my fic.

Now, I'd never ever use the word "gross" or "disgusting" or similar words in feedback, ever. That's totally rude and weird and I have no clue why anyone would consider that a good way to convey their feelings to an author.

Unfortunately, I find that when body fluids and excrement come into play the ability to restrain personal disgust goes out the window. It is usually more apparent in exchange fic or prompt requests though:

"I like x, y, z, but none of that really gross stuff."

With comments I've also gotten a lot of: "wow that's scary" for things like breathplay and I completely understand where the person is coming from, but I think there are better ways to convey the intensity of the fic in a comment on someone's.

Anyway, thanks for contributing, and I just want to say that I adore every comment you've every left me. :D

[powrhug.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm the kind of person who warns for het but not slash...it's my little way of protesting folks who do the opposite. NOT that me doing that will change anything, but hey it makes me feel better.

Anyway, thanks for contributing, and I just want to say that I adore every comment you've every left me. :D

Oh awesome! I apprecaite every comment you've left me as well.

(sorry if you get this twice, LJ is acting weird)

[casness.livejournal.com]

I agree completely with what you said here. Before this fandom, I haven't read some of the kinks that I've now read and I thought that I read it all. Nope, I still have amazing surprises when reading sanguine2's and azziria's fanfics.

For my experience, when reading a new kink that I haven't read before, I would still leave a supportive message and probably something along the lines of I'm now a puddle from how hot this was.

I also run a kink meme and there has been some instances where people were shamed for this kinks, I have no tolerance for that. At that point, it's a nice reminder of the rules. I remember the one case I had was an entire thread about how the author needed to warn for het because her primary pairing was slash. I've never seen a warning for it and I refuse to force people warn for het or slash.

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

I refuse to force people warn for het or slash.

Good! I don't care if I've written 130 slash fic, if a reader can't pay attention to the pairing info then it is on them. There is nothing shameful, wrong, or disturbing about m/m, f/f, m/f or any other combination of the above.

I really respect you for making that a strong line on your meme. It can be hard for a lot of people to get up the nerve to participate in kink memes and too many people think the ability to go anon means they can do or say whatever they want in response to people's requests and fills. I'm glad you don't let them. :D

[bandbfan.livejournal.com]

WELL SAID!!!

Strictly from a readers POV, I appreciate the warnings & notations for kinks but I HOPE that I have always been respectful and have never judged when commenting.
I can not for the life of me understand why those commentators do not realize how hurtful those comments can be.
Kinks are extremely personal and individual, and thanks to, I think, everyone that has commented so far I have quadrupled my personal kinks list!

Please feel free to correct me if you have come across a judgmental or hurtful comment from me

(PSST)I love it when you get up on your soapbox, when you choose to it is always something that either needs to be said or reiterated. Kind of why I love LJ, I have learned so much in the short time I have been around!

Thanks Shiny!

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

Strictly from a readers POV, I appreciate the warnings & notations for kinks but I HOPE that I have always been respectful and have never judged when commenting.

When it comes to reading porn I love as much info as possible going in. I am so much more likely to click on a kink that intrigues me than what looks like the same old, same old sweet morning sex. Not that there is anything wrong with sweet morning sex, but we all have a few things we get more excited about than others. ;) I love the tag option on AO3 for that reason. I click a tag and end up reading exhibitionism or public sex or anonymous sex or whatever in all sorts of fandoms.

Anyway, I'm sure you're a respectful commenter and can't think of a time when you weren't respectful to me. :D

[verasteine.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes. When I was in LJ fandom for a bit a good friend introduced me to the phrase, your kink is not my kink and that's okay. That's pretty much the philosophy I like to stick to, myself. Content notes are a great way to make this more neutral. (In this category, see also: warning for slash. So not cool.)

But. One thing I'm glad to hear you say is that you will use AO3 style warnings if warnings are required. As someone with (noncon/dubcon) triggers, I appreciate that. Content notes feel harmless to me, like a list of ingredients, but warnings is the section I go to for the things I really need to know about a fic. Now I know there are some kinks that occupy a grey area (where it is a trigger for someone but not conventionally listed as a trigger by fandom) but for the really big ones, I do appreciate it.

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

In this category, see also: warning for slash. So not cool.

Agreed. I feel that warning for m/m, f/f, m/f, or any combination is insulting at the best. There is nothing shameful, disturbing, or wrong about any of it and it should not be treated as such. If a person can't figure out from the pairings and/or the rating and summary what type of fic it is then that is their problem.

But. One thing I'm glad to hear you say is that you will use AO3 style warnings if warnings are required.

Trust me, I will always be very cautious about that. I don't usually write fic with consent issues. In fact, I believe that I have only written one fic that I labeled dubcon and that was a very, very cautious interpretation. If I have any doubts about what I should include in warnings/notes I discuss it with my beta.

Now I know there are some kinks that occupy a grey area (where it is a trigger for someone but not conventionally listed as a trigger by fandom) but for the really big ones, I do appreciate it.

It is impossible to warn for everything, and while I prefer to write consent that is clearly consent, I do occasionally write some darker fic that could trigger people for other reasons. I do my best to put some sort of info about that in the header, but if you ever have any doubts feel free to PM me. :D

[acidpop25.livejournal.com]

I think you've pinpointed why I like posting on AO3, where you have major warnings and then just tag for content (which users can then choose to ignore or not). On my journals I 'warn' for things but really mostly consider it a preview of what themes and kinks are contained in the fic.

[shinysylver.livejournal.com]

I love AO3 because I love searching the tags. I can find all the kink! :D

[grimcognito.livejournal.com]

I use 'Warning' more as a way to flag down all my content tags rather than a 'Beware, for these sins lie within' type of thing.

I can see what you mean when you say it comes across as labeling things as shameful, but I just think of it as a convenient way to show content in a quick manner (it's also a great tool for those rude responders when you point it out and say, "If you can't be bothered to read the header for the story, I can't be bothered to give a hoot when you don't like it.")

I tend not to give warnings at all unless the story has a high rating or if I feel like I should point out specific content. (I never consider slash a warning, and the only time I label it is as a tag for story finding, or if I'm posting in a comm that has both het and slash stories.)

I also appreciate knowing what I'm about to read, be it labeled under Warning or Content or whatever, because while I'm all for kinks like tentacles, felching, and fisting, I really have no interest in anything poly, no matter if it's rated G or NC-17.

As for labeling something as a trigger, the only things I consider using the term 'Trigger' for is a situation that would actually cause a person real discomfort (not just squick, but real trauma) like rape and graphic violence that could effect a person with traumatic stress.

As for rude douches that feel the need to put people down, if I don't like a story, well, it's my own fault for clicking on the link (unless it was improperly labeled) and I simply press the 'back' button and go on my merry way.

I do sometimes feel nervous when posting my higher-rated stories, simply because a lot of my kinks aren't as common as what's really popular. I like consensual tentacles, semi-human characters and things like felching, but I don't like bondage, poly or dub/non-con (which are all popular in kink memes) so I'm often half afraid some jerk will drop a line. Luckily, I've had no problems yet and those who have commented seemed to like it all just fine, which I am very happy to hear!

Sorry for the long-winded reply! I really like reading your kink posts because so few people are so open about discussing these things. :D

[michele659.livejournal.com]

The only time I've ever warned for something was when I wrote a dub-con fic. I haven't written any non-com or violent sex but if I did I'd warn for that. Those are things that can be real triggers for people so I don't have a problem warning for them.
I won't warn for any kinks. I'll explain them in the summary or the A/N but I don't see the need to warn for kinks,especially in a kink meme!

I have,on occasion commented that I usually don't read such and such kind of stories(very few types because I like almost any kind of kink)but I'm not trying to say I'm ashamed of liking it or that I think it's wrong if others do. I mean it as a compliment for the author. People said that to me in the dub-con story I wrote and I could tell from the tone of the comment that they meant it as a compliment as well.

People should never be made to feel ashamed of liking anything.There's enough censorship and shaming about sexuality(especially women and sexuality)in the "real world". We should be encouraging each other to accept ourselves and enjoy sexuality in our online interactions and fandoms.
Warning for slash is so ridiculous and insulting. I've never seen warning for het,but I'd say the same thing regarding a warning for it.
And I love stories that deal with public/semi-public,exhibitionist type sex,and I enjoy watersports stories and am always disappointed that there aren't that many out there.If you know of any good ones with Steve/Danny could you give me the links,please? :D